What’s Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non-Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Sistas from songstress and actress Jill Scott to blogger and writer Sister Toldja have sparked quite a buzz over the subject of black men romantically involved with non-black women. But since the number of black men out-marrying hovered around a paltry 8% throughout the 80s and 90s, most media outlets have instead chosen to focus on recycled “lonely black female crisis” news. However, a new study revealing a steep jump in black male out-marrying may prove Toldja and Scott right about the interracial elephant in the room that’s about to sit down on everyone in it.

davechappellefamily Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Dave Chappelle with wife & kids

Cross-cultural love in the US is nothing new. Before the advent of slavery, the US was home to immigrants from all over seeking a better life, and it wasn’t unusual to see interracial couples among Native Americans and European and African immigrants.

It was only after slavery became a fact of American life that laws against inter-marrying were put into effect, with most of these laws remaining on the books well after the official end of slavery in 1865.

Some however, refused to bow to legislation telling them who they could love.  Like Frederick Douglass.

Douglass Helen Eva Frederick 239x300 Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Frederick Douglass with wife Helen (seated) and her sister Eva

After Douglass’ African-American wife Anna died in 1882, he fell into a depression and turned to friends like Ida B. Wells and Helen Pitts, his clerk in the office of the Recorder of Deeds in Washington (to which he had just been appointed under President Garfield), to help him get his zest for life back.

Pitts, the daughter of Douglass’ abolitionist friends Gideon and Jane Pitts, was a suffragist and had co-edited a radical feminist publication in DC called The Alpha prior to working for him.

In 1884, Douglass, 70, incited a scandal by marrying the Caucasian Pitts, who was 20 years his junior.

Blacks and whites across the country either hailed the Douglass-Pitts union as revolutionary, or decried it as an affront to both races. In addition to facing criticism from the racially divided, post-slavery public, they also faced it from their own families.

Despite their abolitionist beliefs, Mrs. Douglass’ parents were so against the marriage they stopped speaking to her, effectively disowning her; Douglass’ children disapproved because they felt his marriage was a “repudiation” of their late mother.

When I look at the photo of Douglass and his white wife, at once, I can see their union as a marriage untainted by the barbarity that was slavery, and imagine myself as a black woman of the late 1800s just getting used to my white-mandated “freedom”–perhaps as a domestic worker, serving them at White House dinners or the homes of Douglass’ wealthy friends–feeling a 19th century wince seeing this good black man with this white woman.

And I can’t help but wonder if sisters in 1884 were having the same conversations surrounding interracial marriage many of us are having today.

Whites certainly were.

In the Feb. 28th, 1884 edition of the Nation Magazine, marriage between black men and white women was actually posed as an answer to Caucasians’ “negro problem”, and a black preacher ominously recounts reasons a rash of such marriages would be disastrous for black women.

douglass Nation article 1884 Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Article on Frederick Douglass' marriage to Helen Pitts in the Nation Magazine, Feb. 28, 1884.

Translation:

Black men marrying white women could solve our “Negro problem” and cause black women to go crazy because no one will marry them!

An early version of the–insert negative adjective like [bitter, angry, bitchy] here–black woman crisis, anyone?

Whether or not this scheme of getting more black men to marry white women was ever set in stone, the idea certainly seems to have taken root.

duke ellington wife1 Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Duke Ellington and wife

In fact, a new Pew study, “Marrying Out” (released 0n 6-5-10, updated on 6-15-10), reports that interracial marriage is on the rise, with 1 of out of every 7 new US marriages being interracial or inter-ethnic unions.  And out of those interracial marriages involving a black male,  that black male, represents 22% of all newly married black men in the US.

In other words, 1 out of every 5 black American men is now marrying a non-black woman.

richard pryor jennifer pool Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Richard Pryor with wife Jennifer

Below is a graph I made by inputting the percentages of black men out-marrying since 1980, against the years these numbers were calculated (1980, 2000, 2008). The graph shows that within the last 28 years, the number of black men out-marrying has taken a swift upward trajectory.

20100714080621 Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

This graph represents 7.9% of black men out-marrying in 1980, 15.7% in 2000 and 22% in 2008.

Although exact figures are difficult to come by, I can only imagine that in the 115 years from the end of slavery in 1865 to 1980–the years during which most most US States had anti-miscegenation laws in place –that the number of black men out-marrying hovered well below 7%.

The closest statistic I could find on the number of black men out-marrying before 1980 was from 1960, which stated that in that year, a mere 1% of black male and female newlyweds combined married non-blacks.

So what’s behind the sudden rise in black men marrying non-black women? The statistics beg the question: Was the reason black men didn’t marry non-black women in these high numbers in the past, simply because they couldn’t?

Since the number of black men out-marrying jumped approximately 14% over 28 years (from 1980 t0 2008), this might represent a trend, and if it does, with this current trajectory black male out-marrying could grow at a rate of about 2% per year.

dr dre andwife Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Dr. Dre and wife

If this pattern continues, the number of black men out-marrying by 2025 could be roughly 1 out of 2 (52%). According to the Pew study, only 9% of black women married in 2008 wed non-blacks.

And those numbers don’t even account for the number of black men just dating white women.

ericbenetandgirlfriend Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Eric Benet and girlfriend

Something about this just doesn’t feel right, though I’m hard-pressed to explain why.

Especially considering that I’m already involved, so none of these men or who they choose make a difference to me anyway.

And I know it’s 2010. We have a black president, and our first black Disney princess. These, supposedly, are signs that our country is racially moving onward and upward, beyond these petty conversations about who desires who.

I get it.

But while my mind tells me I have no right to feel anything about who these men choose to love–because every couple falls in love for different reasons–I’m still curious: Why do so many of our successful fathers, sons and brothers not seem to want us?

brianmcknightandgirlfriend Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Brian McKnight and girlfriend

The burden for this phenomenon cannot, despite media attempts to manipulate this as a “black woman’s problem”, be squarely placed on sista’s shoulders. And it’s gotta be deeper than black men being tired.

babyfaceandgirlfriend1 Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Babyface and girlfriend

So why does it seem like so many black men are flocking to non-black women? Is it something we’re doing wrong? Or are some black men just not right?

princeandgirlfriend Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

Prince and girlfriend

And with the rest of America mixing so fast outside of the black population that a new beige majority is slated to replace the dominant white power structure over the next 100 years, what if black men are absorbed by the beige-dominant culture? Where will that leave black women?

…according to an analysis of the 1990 U.S. Census data for persons ages 25-34…31.6 percent of native-born Hispanic husbands and 31.4 percent of native-born Hispanic wives had white spouses. The figures were even higher for Asians: 36 percent for native-born Asian husbands and 45.2 percent for native-born Asian wives. (In fact, Asian wives were as likely to marry white Americans as they were to marry Asian-Americans.)

The highest intermarriage rates are those of American Indians. Majorities of American Indian men (52.9 percent) and American Indian women (53.9 percent) married whites rather than American Indians (40.3 percent and 37.2 percent, respectively)…

In the 21st century, then, the U.S. population is not likely to be crisply divided among whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians and American Indians. Nor is it likely to be split two ways, between whites and nonwhites. Rather, we are most likely to see something more complicated: a white-Asian-Hispanic melting-pot majority — a hard-to-differentiate group of beige Americans — offset by a minority consisting of blacks who have been left out of the melting pot once again. Source.

Thanks for reading this super long entry.

All pics in this entry borrowed from, and many, many thanks are due to, A Field Negro. Be sure to check out his gallery for an eye-opening look at dozens of black men historically and currently linked to non-black women.

Questions:

Is this trend of black male out-marriage a problem? Or are people just making it one?

Were you aware of the growing numbers of black men out-marrying?

Why do you think black women, even though there are more of us than black men, have not out-married as much as black men?

Are you a brother who’s bothered when sisters date or marry out, even though you might date or marry non-black women?

Other thoughts? Comments? Let’s discuss. I’d love to hear from you.

pixel Whats Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats

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50 Responses to “What’s Behind the Spike in Black Male / Non-Black Female Interracial Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats”

Cherryl Aldave July 20th, 2010 at 6:50 am

New blog post: What’s Behind the Spike in Black Male/Non-Black Female Marriage? New Study Shows Startling Stats http://hvmntlst.com/aJqe3u

It's not just black men who are tired! July 20th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

Jill Scott can kiss my ass. If you find someone you truly love and they feel the same… fuck it, be happy. Most black men i know are tired of having an attitude issue to come home to. Now i understand the reasoning and systematic oppression black women have faced since they were originally sold then stolen and brought to Amerikkka. But goddamn… i know white dudes that won’t date black women because of the attitude issue. Every time im in the grocery store it’s not the white or Asian women screaming and berating their children, it’s the black women. When i was a waiter years ago the worst table you could get was an all black women table why, because they’re going to run you to death, leave no tip and more importantly degrade you the whole time. Nothing is ever good enough. I must say not every black women fits this mold but i will say 80% do!!!

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WHOA!!! July 22nd, 2010 at 4:51 am

GREAT POST… speechless!

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Allah Universal July 22nd, 2010 at 6:56 pm

Peace…1st thing I wanna say is that this is a great subject & article, very well put together (paying my respect being a 1st time reader)…My answers to the questions you’ve posed…

1)I don’t see the topic @ hand as the problem in and of itself. I do see it as a symptom of problems with Black People with varied reasons, that take a lot of introspection to resolve…the topic of interracial dating/marriage can make the problem worse, but it’s not the problem…

2)Wasn’t aware of the exact numbers, but did notice the growing trend. The numbers to me reflect a growing inability of Black couples to be committed to getting into, and maintaining loving relationships, for the various reasons mentioned above.

3)Good question. I’d need more specifics to try answering that one in greater detail. From (multiple) experience(s) though, I can testify that many Sisters have a hard time accepting that a Black Man is truly who’s actually being a MAN for her (disclaimer, I’m no angel, but I’ve been taught to treat a woman right or not to be with her). Ever since I’ve heard the term, I’ve been calling it the “TGTBT (Too Good To Be True) Syndrome” So the logic (if you can call it that) is that he HAS to be hiding something, & I’d better get out now before I get hurt (self-sabatoge). And who are they next in a relationship with? A Brother who lives up to their “standards” how what society see Us, no good for her (let alone for himself)…

4)I’m personally nor for, or against interracial dating/marriages, if the love is real it’s really not my business. Having said that, as a cultural standard of mine, I won’t do it (interracial marriage) unless I have ulterior motives (just being honest).

I do have one other thought, in fairness to Brian McKnight…his fiance/wife (not sure of their current status) isn’t exactly non-Black :)

Peace…Allah Universal

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Allah Universal July 22nd, 2010 at 6:59 pm

please pardon my typos, still can’t type as fast as I can think…

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Cherryl July 24th, 2010 at 4:58 am

@it’s not just black men who are tired: now tell me how you really feel about Jill Scott! lol. and ok, want some honesty? when i was a waitress and an all black woman table got seated, all the mostly black waitstaff (me included), would give each other a look like, “You want that one?”. so sad, but so true. thanks for reading.

@whoa!!!: thanks so much!

@All Universal: wow, your comments give me a lot to think about. and i didn’t know that about mcknight’s girl, so sorry about that one…btw the field negro gallery has some other women of non-descript ethnicity, but i still like what he did with that. must’ve taken mad time.

and i totally agree. in the end ir love isn’t the problem, it’s how we love ourselves inside of the black community that counts. and don’t worry about typos, i have ‘em a lot too. on this very blog. and they gone stay there, lol! peace.

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Sharon August 26th, 2010 at 8:11 pm

Who cares who black men marry?
If you truly love a person be with them.

Black,white, hispanic,native, asian.

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Cherryl August 27th, 2010 at 3:28 am

hi sharon, i agree with that, but still something about the way it seems almost planned, perhaps as a way to deliberately leave black women on the underside of society…i have to say that bothers me.

without the horrible stench of slavery and racial injustice that still hangs over america, this wouldn’t be an issue at all, just like it wasn’t an issue among the black, indian and white americans who were here before slavery, so yes at the heart of the issue i totally agree. thanks for stopping by :)

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hadassah August 27th, 2010 at 1:32 pm

Lately i’ve been hearing about white women cheating on their white husbands while black women has been getting a hard time getting married. The upswing in BW/WM marriages is,I think white men are getting tired of being cheated on and black women want to get married. Black women are a little shy being approachible to WM but thats changing and the WW may lose the ‘princess’ position when white men start having kids with them.Many of these BW are also able to homeschool their children as well–something we couldnt do so well before–the sistas just want to be wives and mothers since we didn’t have the privilege of being ‘at home’ wives.

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Phillip Wu August 28th, 2010 at 12:18 am

Good post, Cherryl. As an Asian-American man, I have noticed a similar thing going on with a disproportionate number of Asian women dating non-Asian (esp. white) men versus the other way around. I find that troubling also, like something that will only leave Asian men on the underside of society as you discuss with black women. I think a lot of these disproportionate relationships have to do with power, status within a society, and stereotypes. These things are hurting both black women and Asian men, who are both groups that are looked down on in the dating/romance world.

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Cherryl August 28th, 2010 at 1:04 am

phillip your response to this makes me laugh, only because it makes me think of my own parents: an asian man and a black woman!

that might be a possible answer then — we, the black women and asian men left on the underside should not remain lonely, but instead should marry each other! :)

but on a serious note, i do understand what you mean.

i think an important question is, what is it about our respective cultures our counterparts are running away from?

or maybe even, what is it about white mates our counterparts are running to?

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Colibri/Hummingbird October 17th, 2010 at 9:17 pm

OK, I married a “Black Man” in 1980, we had a son by then and we married because we wanted to prevent our child from being a “bastard” My Black husband, as any other African-American in the U.S. was not pure black, he is part white Irish, part African descent and part Comache. So I’m always surprised by “Black” people who constantly differentiate now, as to who is or is not Black. The majority of the Blacks in the U.S. are mixed!

We have 2 children, a boy and a girl. They are now a mixture of Black, Irish, Spanish, English, French (all white) and Comache and Otomi (from central Mexico). My daughter looks Brazilian and my son looks Mid-Eastern, and both are great people.

They both call themselves “BlaMex” (Black/Mexican). ciao all

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Cherryl October 17th, 2010 at 10:36 pm

lol “BlaMex” is a new one to me. i’ve also heard “blacxican”, lol.

the thing that interests me so much about the phenomenon of IR marriage in the US, especially between WW and BM, is the sharp upward trajectory of marriages in such a relatively short amount of time.

it almost makes one think the rumors of black men being lusting after white women during slavery and reconstruction to be true…

at least in my eyes. and it makes me sad for the women who are left behind as black men go chasing some “other” that makes them feel more equal to white men.

i know that is not the case with all black men, but i find something disturbing about the men that it is true for. and those men are who really inspired this post.

thank you so much for commenting!

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asim October 31st, 2010 at 7:38 am

great blog

this is of course a topic we gotta tread carefully – the main thing i think is that u dont look at this from the other angle – what about the ‘motherfuckers’ – the slave owners who raped slaves? the psychic as well as physical legacy remains of course – this is partially being redressed – but also in the final comment – not only are blacks left out of the melting pot – some whites exclude themselves – because they CAN! its about power – this is where the psychotic homophobia of some culture (eg step on chichiman etc) comes from – rape of black men and women by white men was a common part of slavery…
btw i am a pakistani man (black) married to an english girl (white) with a mixed race boy. in the uk many pakis identified – and were labelled as black – up until very recently theres been a move away from that in the media/govt to refer to black as african only. these issues are related to that of intermarriage too. but there is a power hierarchy related to status and beauty and its something we gotta work together to destroy!!
thanx

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Cherryl November 1st, 2010 at 12:36 am

@asim – very thought provoking Asim! and with that being you’re name, can I assume you are either Muslim or of a Muslim background?

if so i wonder how that has played, if at all, into any discrimination you might have endured from English people?

i’ve never been to England but from what i hear from friends there, there are still quite a few tensions between English people and people who they deem to be “foreigners”.

and i think you’re right about the horrors of slavery still playing out in many people’s minds today.

you seem knowledgeable about slavery–do you think pakistanis who were once considered black are better educated on the black struggle here in america, than pakistanis living in pakistan?

i know of other non-black groups who are considered “black” in their region or continent, like Georgians, and i’ve often wondered if being associated with “blackness” in their respective countries has made them more curious about the black struggle in the US.

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asim November 1st, 2010 at 3:23 pm

hey thanks for taking up a few threads there – yes i’m from a muslim background but am a left communist now.

the current ‘war on terror’ is in my view not just a war on islam / xth crusade etc – which has played out in europe for centuries – but also a change in tactic in the white supremacist war on ‘blackness’

i also think that the african-american struggle – especially around the 60s – X, King, Garvey has provided great inspiration to all peoples fighting white supremacism and the associated colonial/imperial/capitalist oppresion all over the world – but vertainly in the uk where as i mentioned, all migrants (ex-colonies esp jamaica, india) were labelled black – however there was a hierarchy of discrimination and some treated as **more** black.. especially when it suited the “whites”… if u know wot i mean…!

i want to write more but no time now so i will try and come back later cos theres more i wanna write on this.. especially relating it to toher countries i’ve been to…!!!

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Cherryl Reply:

very interesting what you say about the war on terror–as if you can have a war against an emotion, lol–as part of a new strategy in the war on “blackness”. i’d never thought of that before–a new twist for sure!

and i do know what you mean about being treated as “more” black. when i see pakistanis and indians come here to america…i see them primarily adopt white cultural mores for whatever reason. it’s as if they try to distance themselves from any idea of “blackness”–this is for the most part a generalization of course, but i wonder if that has more to do with how they may have been discriminated against in their homelands, or how they perceive African-Americans in general–a perception which is more than likely tainted by how some white people typically view African-Americans.

asim, i hope you come back soon and expound on your other points!

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asim November 2nd, 2010 at 4:29 pm

thanx for the opportunity to write on this as i think its a hugely important topic, obviously… i’m currently excited because Chinua Achebe is coming to Cambridge University, near where I live this month. but I had never even heard of him until my wife and I went to work in the Pacific islands, where Things Fall Apart is still taught in schools. It certainly is not here in UK – in fact I had never heard of anyhting about African English before working abraod. I also didn;t really know about Transportation – how British prisoners – of course mostly working class people arrested for sometimes very petty crimes were sent to what is now USA and Australia as basically slave labour which taught me some lessons which relate to your post “Slavery is Everywhere” … another think which interested me was how a key group in the Solomon Islands independence movement ‘Masina Ruru’ was influenced by ‘native’ islanders (of ‘Melanesia’ – labelled by Europeans as such, literally meaning the black (Mela) islands) who met African American soldiers during WW2 and were inspired by them to struggle for equality with the British rulers, because these soldiers did not see themselves as in any way inferior to the European Americans they worked with. The role of African American liberation movement around the world is of course really important – I also read while out in the Pacific that African Americans were protected in apartheid SA as US citizens but I dont know much about how this worked and for how long… but there are many contradictions to do I think with how Class (which I take to include how class, race, gender all interact) work in this neo-colonial or ‘advanced capitalist’ era.
Through my involvement with the ‘Art Strike’ I’ve recently come to know of the work of Michelle Wallace and Faith Ringgold and the Women Students and Artists for Black Art Liberation involvement in an Art Strike in NY. Any info you may have on the movement would be appreciated! Check our site out too.. http://strike2012.org we’re organising a conference in Lithuania next year and if you are interested in attending we should be able to cover some expenses!
i just found Michelle Wallace’s blog http://ringgoldinthe1960s.blogspot.com/ as it has a bit from Invisibilkity Blues – particulalry i was thinking of the quote ‘if you’re white you’re all right, if you’re black stay back -if you’re brown stick around…’ cos your comment reminded me of it a bit – i think there is a sell-out by many people – sometimes its bad but sometimes i do understand people gotta survive…
but the dynamic of class gender and race – thats the important thing we gotta figure out… cos it’s not straight forward is it! ok all ofr now, i’ll be back later!!!

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asim November 3rd, 2010 at 10:29 pm

so wot i wanna relate is 2 memories of being referred to as black
the first is around 12 yrs old and the grandad of a white school friend looks at a black pen and says to be – “thats black, like you.¨ and it struck me that ´black’ was not a physical but a metaphysical thing.
the second was some years later, around 14 at a public enemy gig in london when a black man – of african descent (right?) gave me a black power zine, and i began to realise that ´black’ is a political thing
i think the main failure of the international movement is therefore the relapse or confusion with nationalism – nationalism is the foundation of international capitalism (adam smithś wealth of nations) – so black nationalism doesnt make sense in terms of repatriation – if repatriation – which is always advocated by the far right in this country was to happen would all the europeans return to europe from usa and australia? no way. its about movement of capital – money – and intelectual capital – not people. but capital always flows towards the international centres not outwards. and these centres were established centuries ago but consolidated at the birth of capitalist system about 400 years ago… black therefore i take to truly mean anti-capialist!! the failure of black power movement is our inability to unite red skinned black skinned – men and women – all oppressed peoples – to go beyond identity – or rather between and through identities, gender, race – to re-define class

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Cherryl November 8th, 2010 at 4:00 am

@asim – very sad about what that old man said to you–how rude. and i agree about capitalism and blackness. however it is so very difficult to pull the majority of American blacks away from capitalism because a few of us “have it good” so to speak, and as long as people can enjoy a reasonable level of comfort in life they are resistant to change.

also, many of us cannot see or appreciate the long term, global damage capitalism does and has done, as our views in general tend to be narrowly focused on our struggle, which is still ongoing unfortunately.

please let me know more about this conference in Lithuania? interesting.

i must say i know little about communism–except that most countries that practiced it now practice some sort of democracy (which i know is not a coincidence).

i have not studied as much about world financial systems as i should–right now i’m very focused on completing my book proposal for a book which deals for the most part with black women’s intercultural issues.

i’m interested to learn more about your perspective on “class”, and what ways do you think it should be re-defined? ttyl (i hope) :) .

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asim November 8th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

i think within a relationship there becomes an equalisation – a black man whose oppressed due to race/ethnicity and a white woman oppressed through sex/gender find common ground – i really have experienced this in arguments!! but are interacial relationships more accepted now than samesex relationships? – and what about relationships between people from different classes. now thats i think the hardest one – different class backgrounds – even beyond the family, because if the family gives you shit you can always go off and be together – and will have support from the state in terms of welfare etc – and many people have to do this – i mean in the uk they will recognise same sex and interracial marriages – but inter-class, even though its equally legal and i am not sure there has ever been specific laws against it, is a very rare site, especially in monogamous couples (i think inter-class marriage is alot more common for polygamous marriages where the rich man has many poor wives!!!) because of material differences – one side is going to be dependent on the other in order to support them financially… i mean as the working class have only their labour to survive with, love as a labour (!) is their only currency with which to exchange with their lover. the middle classes however have (cultural, intelectual, human, physical) capital with which to exchange. i guess under capitalism we are therefore all prostitutes. so it brings me to the original point – and your latest post – what about white middle class men… its their sexual “habits” that are the real problem here!!!!

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Cherryl November 9th, 2010 at 1:17 am

@asim – if you asked me i would say it’s ALL men’s sexual habits that are the problem!

of course you can never say “all” in any situation…but i know that, much like the fact that racism wouldn’t exist (at least not to the extent that it does) without the consent of white people, sexism and misogyny wouldn’t be what it is without men’s consent.

and oh yes, i do believe that in many many instances, the burdens brought to a relationship by both parties, whether they be white, asian, etc. are equal, and that may be part of the attraction between two people–the sense of “common struggle” and common goals.

as for me and my husband, who is Caucasian (lol i know much to the surprise of some people), we are both from poor working class backgrounds, and we both are activists and speakers around working class issues.

he’s actually a skin…something i know you are familiar with being from the uk? (i think you are from the uk at least from your comments here).

and of course that means skin in the original sense not the bullshit white power skin shit that seems to be popping up everywhere.

but yes, i totally agree, i do believe in situations where both partners have endured the stress of discrimination, etc., that there is much common ground–sometimes more than uncommon ground.

interesting what you say about class though. because in america, people from all walks of life tend to co-mingle, whether it’s at university or in the workplace so you will see a lot more inter-class marriages here.

i’ve never been to the uk but what you’re saying makes it seem to be a very classist society. and if you’re “smart” here in the US and can imitate the mores of the “upper class” as it were, it can be easy for someone to at least be very good friends with members of that class, if not joining that class themselves through generations of hard work, and luck lol.

there are standards still in place that kind of put a line between people who are “newly moneyed” and those here who have “old money”, but those sort of distinctions are blurring.

it’s very interesting that the uk recognizes same sex unions! as you may know that is a huge issue here right now, and yes, it is MUCH more acceptable to be in an interracial marriage than in a same sex marriage.

americans are really uncomfortable with gay people on a whole (although that is changing), i guess because of the whole western “cowboy” aspect of how america views itself, you know, rough, rugged, pioneering americans!

so even though our society *supposedly* frowns on gays–and religion plays a huge part in this too–what we have here in america is like a wave of “shadow sex” where “upstanding” men lol like many we have had in government (who are married) have been caught trying to solicit sex from young men, and you have priests here who have rampantly raped and assaulted young boys in their care.

it’s kinda the same thing with spitzer and his whores, and his wife.

a double standard exists in america when it comes to sex and i do not believe we will be able to shoulder the hypocrisy much longer.

we applaud marriage, but 50% of our marriages end in divorce. we publicly are against “gay sex” but then so many of our own politicians and priests can’t wait to get in some young boys booty!

it’s scandal and hypocrisy all around, and the lot of it seems to be coming from men.

and i can’t just say white men in this instance, because there has also been the phenomenon in the black community of being “on the down low”, or being married but still secretly enjoying gay sex.

so again…i do believe a large part of the problems in this world stem from men placing their WANTS over the NEEDS of everyone in their communities, and much like the slave master who does not want to let his slaves go because it would make HIS life harder, i believe a lot of men are comfortable with sexism (because it doesn’t directly affect them) and they enjoy the state of power they have in this world (overall).

[Reply]

Cherryl November 9th, 2010 at 1:28 am

@Cherryl – damn this is a long reply, lol.

[Reply]

asim November 9th, 2010 at 1:47 am

yes i’m from london. talking about skins, theres a film ‘this is england’ out recently here. lots of people see it as anti-racist even though there are i think 3 seperate race hate speaches in that film and nothing from the left or from black characters to defend themselves. in fact the only black character is a 2-d punchbag. please don’t get me wrong – i do agree – i don’t want to undermine women’s struggle against all men – everywhere! it’s something i need to be more aware of. i am just concerned (being a black man!) about racism of whites – men and women (cos i feel it more directly)..!! and how that interacts with sexism.. i was talking to an ‘octoroon’ friend about someone who is working out in australia last night and it reminded me about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Territory_National_Emergency_Response
ok gotta go to work now but more later!

[Reply]

Cherryl November 9th, 2010 at 2:48 am

oh asim…email me at heavymentalist@gmail.com so i can get your email address. i’m very interested in corresponding with you about your time in “mela” nesia, lol (wow what a racially inspired name, and most ppl, as i didn’t, do not get the obvious racial overtones).

[Reply]

ronnie brown December 12th, 2010 at 1:55 am

Cherryl, you’re asking a question that many of us aren’t fully prepared to respond to…that being said, i would say that for Black men, in regard to our choices…1. we choose what we value. 2. perception is reality. We choose women based on how complementary they are to who we imagine ourselves to be…If in our mind we perceive Black women to be a detriment for any reason ( so-called attitude, looks, personality, cooking, education, any number of things) they will not be on our short list. Now in reality, those perceptions may be as bogus as a three dollar bill, but if we believe them, we’ll act accordingly; and part of that “acting accordingly” usually means that if we don’t reject you outright, we will certainly make an effort to sex you, but we won’t deem you suitable as a potential wife…especially if we are fortunate enough to achieve any professional success…

[Reply]

Samantha January 7th, 2011 at 1:01 pm

This is not a big deal. If AABW were not so close-minded against dating other races of men, this would not be a problem. In the UK, BM marry out at a rate of 50%. Their BW sisters are not too far behind, at nearly 40%. In the US, BM marry out at a rate of 22% and climbing, while BW marry out at a rate of 8-9%. Be more open and accepting of all men, regardless of colour. Focus on what’s more important, like the guy’s character, values and capacity to care for his family. That’s really what matters in the end. There is no point in bemoaning what black men choose to do – that is their right. It doesn’t reflect on you, unless you choose to take it personally (why would you? Do you know any of these guys??? And if you did, so? ). Be your best self, be open and go get it! I’m seeing more of this everyday for BW, and I say it’s about damn time BW stop being self defeating and silly.

[Reply]

Cherryl January 18th, 2011 at 5:54 am

@ronnie brown – thanks for your honesty ronnie! that’s all i ask of anyone, and it’s important to hear all sides in this convo without getting “feelings” etc. in the mix, but rather to look at the situation objectively, which can’t happen without opinions like yours :)

[Reply]

Cherryl January 18th, 2011 at 6:03 am

@Samantha – you know, there is something so true about your statement about bw opening up our possibilities instead of limiting ourselves.

i wish i could give every black woman in the world a t-shirt that says “i live a life without limits!”

but a part of me, honestly, is just concerned about what this might mean for the future of black people in America as a whole, because at some point, with enough mixing we will stop being “black” and i love black people–i don’t want to see a day without us.

it’s hard to explain these feelings though…so maybe i’ll write a post about it.

[Reply]

CC March 10th, 2011 at 11:44 pm

Can we focus on dating and marriage preferences of non-black men?

If the problem is simply, as Samantha puts it, black women need to be more open, then is the assumtion that when we open ourselves, other races of men will flock to us at the same speed that they flock to white, or really any non-black group of women?

please answer this for me, and not using the example of your one black friend who ALL the white guys “like”(i.e. want to hit it)

after that, please explain why its okay to talk about inequality, the legacy of slavery and racism when we look at black men catching cabs in NYC,trying to get a job as an NFL football coach, being “set up” after snorting cocaine, having affairs or beating or raping someone, but when we talk about obstacles to black women’s desires to be married, have a family and continue the “black community”, suddenly race has no place and it’s all about preferences and loving who you just happen to love..really???

no discussion at all about how those “preferences” might have been created? why can’t emloyers who prefer to have white workers that speak a certian way, or universities who looove asian kids that can bring their test scores up, or highway patrol officers who randomly stop men who are brown b/c they perceive them as being mostly criminals do as they please also? I mean, its just preferences, right???

if it is just about preferences, and that’s it, why all of the foul mouthed anti-black female sentiment that has come from anyone who has the microphone and opportunity to talk about black women, as nappy headed hos, blackbutts, slaves, etc…and we won’t even talk about the comments that are found on the internet – check it out sometime. what other group of women endures the same amount of hate in songs, blogs, comments, magazines, newsstories, etc..? I dare you to try and find another group that suffers the same negativity.

the perpetuation of the idea of black women being inappropriate as marriage partners is social discrimination based on race just like discrimination against hiring black workers,etc…but without laws to fight against this form of prejudice, bias, and racism coupled with an ignorance and unwillingness of non-black women and non-Asian men (I appreciate their input and enlightenment they bring to this situation proving it is not just bitter black women, but any group who feels put down and marginalised) to delve deeper into this issue and try to see it from the perspective of the “Other”.

[Reply]

Cherryl March 11th, 2011 at 12:38 am

@CC – wow. i never thought about the fact that this IS a sort of prejudice against black women that goes unregulated, and largely unnoticed. or rather, ignored.

you’ve really made me think about this on a deeper level. it does seem like an almost societal neglect of black women, and i’ve recently been thinking about this myself in my own life with some of the rap music i grew up listening to.

it’s almost as if i’ve numbed myself to a lot of the negative messages in some rap music, maybe because i grew up without a father, i don’t know…

but i’m thinking that it’s going to take some sort of revolution on black women’s part to change a lot of this…it’s becoming sadly obvious to me that black men, on a whole will not take up arms in this fight, so, again, the onus is on us.

i personally need to start rejecting and voicing my discontent with all anti-black female messages. all of us do…and let the haters hate cuz it seems like everytime black women do something as a group we get called “angry bitter bitches”, etc.

your comment makes me want to start today! and encourage all of my friends to do the same.

i think i would have a lot of work to do though…black females and females in general account for the majority of the rap music market. it’s almost like we’re paying to be disrespected. what’s wrong with us?

[Reply]

CC March 11th, 2011 at 11:32 am

Thanks for responding!

Well, Africans sold their own brothers and sisters into slavery for money, when rock music was extremely popular in the eighties and clearly mysoginystic, white women ate it up, same for the suffrage movements – do you think all white women were in support of them getting the right to vote?, in Latin America for decades people have advocated “whiteness” as superiority and a means of racial uplift for the country (i.e. Argentina, Dominican Republic),which actually served to solidify their own psychological or social position of inferiority…there are a long list of examples of oppressed/marginalised people playing a part in their own demise and never fully realizing or accepting the proposed harm that the majority group is inflicting (I’m thinking now of the book “the miseducation of the negro” with a cover that shows a mind that has been shackled).

I think black women are very much interested in keeping the black community alive. It seems women of many international groups (Jewish, Italian, Indian, Nigerian,etc…) are interested in carrying on tradition, based on my discussions. Unfortunately, I think that when white Americans wanted to carry on tradition, often their motives were purely hateful and racist, so on one hand it is good to get away from that. On the other hand, I once again raise the question of black women being marketed as least desireable mates from early centuries in this country when we were counted as absentee mothers because we were out working long hours as domestics or wet nurses for white families, or deemed morally corrupt and hypersexualized animals, giving white men justification for continuous sexual assaults on black women. Remember, there were no rape kits back then and the word of black women was not enough to get anyone lynched or sent to jail.

I think black women, similar to white women and other groups of women, find strength in partnering and having a specific connection with men who share their same culture and customs and do not want to break those ties. White women are sometimes called into question because of their willingness to be, as Sojourner Truth said, “the white man’s dog”. In fact, white women recieved protection, social status, and financial stability for their willingness to subject themselves to the will of white men – regardless of how sexist or demeaning or controlling it was/is. Black women, however, historically have had a much greater responsibility for the protection of our family and children, our finanical stability, and social status. We have had to fight alongside black men for each of these things, more as partners than simply recievers.
Despite that difference, black women still found extreme value in having families with black men.

Today, having been through the civil rights movement, it is more possible for black men to provide financial security, social stability and status, and protection (3 things that all women and all fathers of daughters want/require). Black women have also been able to soar in their achievement and don’t want to let this potentially golden time get away. So, ironically, just as white women saw value in partenering with white men despite being mistreated, to a degree, I think black women at this point are also willing to overlook some bad behavior in order to facilitate partnering.

Many black women feel that a group can’t have a shared history of struggle, like black men and women do, and not feel a strong bond – collectively and individually. The kicker is that black women seem to still feel that bond on an individual level while many black men seem to have moved on. So, at times, we see black men pushing the collectivity idea – that any issue that affects the safety and security of a black man should be a cause of alarm for all blacks. Thus, we as black women willingly go to lend our voices, time, energy, and support to the black man who wants to get elected to office, or the young man whose locker someone hangs a noose on, or when they get in trouble with the law and want everyone to get on board with their “anti-lynching” campaign. What I am saying is black men play the race card when it is in their favor and expect black women to go along. When the shoe is on the other foot and black women expect black men to support them in their endeavors, race no longer is an adhesive!!

Speaking of shoe being on the other foot, the magazine Cosmo did a highly scathing and clearly indignant story on older, white, rich men in hollywood selecting younger, sometimes Asian brides. Hmmmm…suddenly we have a problem with preferences? I guess the whole preference thing is cool as long as its not “rich” white men overlooking white women? Or is it the problem when white women no longer fit into the most desired category when they start getting older and suddenly find themselves cast out as the “other” and then have something to say?

Three main points which I would love addressed and never seem to be in these discussions:

1. No one group should be talked about disparagingly. So, if a person has a preference, fine, but don’t bad mouth another group – not good. Because then its not about preferences, it’s about racism, prejudice, and bigotry. And if you don’t think people have the right to be prejudiced or racist towards you, then don’t direct it towards anyone else. And all women and men, regardless of race, who consider themsleves decent and believe in equality, should speak out against black men or any other people who say nasty things about one particular group – including black women. Everyone deserves to be protected.

2. Why don’t we get non-black men involved in this discussion???? I think there would be less animosity if more non-black men approached black women for the purpose of long term relationships, including marriage.Unfortunately, because of the negative marketing campaign against black women, or should I say very pro-white female campaign that has been running for centuries now, I really think many men have no idea what to do with or what to believe about black women. I’m especially interested in white Christian men – there are so many black women who share that same value, why do they not get together? Is there an undertone of racism, even among the “God Fearing”, when people think of who is suitable to marry and what their progeny will look like? (did you see the episode of the reality bachelor tv show where the mother droned on about her son having to be with someone white – it was comical, but good in that she said what many-or is it just some?- people think)

3. Preferences – If preferences don’t matter, why are white women constantly making snarky remarks about white men who go to other coutries to find brides or decide to marry younger women because they prefer they way they look and act? What’s the difference? Maybe preferences are not just individual choices that come from within, devoid of outside influences that may be steeped in racist, sexist, or ageist ideology. If preferneces are totally random and shared equally among all groups, they have resulted in surprisingly non-random patterns of lop-sided social relations that mirror racist, sexist attitutdes and consistently hurt certain social groups more than others. While it is nice to think we are the world, and everyone should love who they want to love and everything thus is equal, that is exactly what is NOT happening. Elderly people, women in holloywood over 40, asian men looking for love, and astute white feminists can vouch for that!

GOOD NEWS!
Fighting back is difficult because we are fighting against a capitalist machine that makes oodles of money on stereotypes that keep young white women as cheerleaders and virile black men as quarterbacks, white men as owners, and everyone else on the bench.

I actually think – well, I know, that a niche of black women are starting to change direction(check out the protest of Spelman women against Nelly coming to perform on campus!)and do just what you have mentioned – tke the discussionto a deeper level, and be ready to challenge disrespect.

ALL groups and individuals have challenges in life. Despite our particular challenges, I love being part of the African female community – so real, so deep, so truly caring, selfless, and supportive, I would never want to change(despite what Chris Rock tries to get people to think :-) !!!!

Oh, …I think the majority of hip-hop purchasers are white, but a higher proportion of blacks buy.

[Reply]

CC March 11th, 2011 at 11:34 am

OMG!!! I did not realize that was THAT long!!!! Oooooo, sorry – maybe just scroll to the last few points;-)))

[Reply]

Cherryl March 11th, 2011 at 2:59 pm

@CC – that’s ok! you’ve unleashed a wealth of good points and it’s true–it does seem like there’s been a negative marketing campaign against black women.

when i was watching the superbowl recently i saw an ad where two white men were discussing their fantasy hot chick who was driving some sort of new car (which i believe the ad was for) but i can’t remember the brand of car being advertised because of the blatant racism in the commercial.

as the men each discussed their fantasy, one would say, “I see a blond woman in sunglasses driving this car”, then the other would say, “No, I see a brunette with long hair” then the other would say, “No, I see a brunette with short hair” and so it went on through like 5 or 6 different physical “types” of white women.

i was furious because again, it seemed to me like black women in all our glorious forms were again left out. and it’s not like i want us to be desired by white men, lord knows they’ve been secretly doing that for centuries, albeit sometimes with the most vulgar of motives/intentions, but i was just aghast at how we repeatedly get left out of all the “Who’s the hot chick” discussions as if our beauty is completely irrelevant.

why do we never get to portray the “girl next door” or the “all american girl”, two stereotypes that, although still represent women who are under white men’s foot, are at least seen as desirable in a “Wholesome” way for white men and more and more, non-white men also.

who launched this centuries old campaign and why? it’s sickening!

but in the meantime…white women and others get great attention from having what have been (before plastic surgery, lol) black women’s features, which seems to make black men desire them MORE!

this might sound racialist but it seems to me many times that many black men want a white black woman, if that makes sense.

these white women, or nearly white women, get praised for their full lips (angelina jolie) or their plump derrieres (kim kardashian) while black women are often teased or called “ugly” for these same features!

it’s infuriating. i have to say this marketing campaign against black women is extremely crafty and subtle, because as black women it escapes many of us how it keeps happening in increasing numbers that black men are rejecting us, but we are the ones raising these black men!

and i totally agree about why don’t more christian white men approach black women, and i do believe it is tinged with racism, even if their “christianity” won’t allow them to come right out and say so.

part of the pew poll mentioned here said that whites, on a whole, still in this age of 2011 thought that blacks were the least desirable group of people to intermarry with! the same people who raised their babies and worked right in their homes for centuries? i guess familiarity does breed contempt.

but it’s crazy to me how loving and supportive black people in general have been of the white population, or any population in general but we still get looked at like we have the plague or something on a whole.

it’s frustrating for me as a black women to always feel like i’m at the bottom of the totem pole in so many ways…ways that other women and many of our own black men seem totally oblivious to.

i applaud those sisters at spelman and would hold them up as exactly the types of “not taking that shit anymore” types of movements i’d love to see more of from us. i admit i’ve been part of the machine myself at times because of my extreme confusion at what exactly i’m supposed to do, nad i do believe it has a large part to do with the fact that i grew up fatherless.

and maybe that’s why we see so many of us lapping up these degrading videos and songs, it’s almost is sometimes this music capitalizes in many ways on the lack of fatherhood in the black commmunity instead of uplifting us as some rap music did in the 90s.

i had a discussion with one of my friends the other day about the “pro black” rap movement and how it’s sorely missed today and both of us were like, “what happened to it?”

[Reply]

CC Reply:

yes, can be very frustrating, this outsider position we’ve been put into. I saw an article, by a non-black person who said it was pretty egregious how ridiculously underpaid serena and venus are – basically due to everything we’ve talked about. And, in highschool, I remember looking at mags with white guys and they acted as if the black women were invisible when it came to who looked good, same with an Indian male friend of mine – could not even consider taking a black woman home. His parents had spelled out which groups were closest to theirs in values and culture, and black (nor white actually) were anywhere near the top. And when we get bad press, without a chance to show our diversity, it just compounds the situation.

But again the support of other Afican women makes it tolerable. Although I am still amazed at how we just keep striding along. We might have some obstacles at this point in history but if we keep trying to achieve and focus on bettering ourselves, making healthy choices for ourselves, RESPECT ourselves and carry ourselves with diginity, the people who matter and who have some integrity, insight, and ambition will start turniing towards us. Right now might not be our best time socially, but it will come – I believe. So, basically, we’re taking one for the team right now;-)

old school – i’m telling you! not a coincidence that it gained crossover appeal and became widely accepted and marketed with a downturn in messages about black empowerment and corrupt police, etc.. and the rise in black on black violence lyrics – you are definitely on point there!

But, I was just lamenting the fact that with the change in the message of hip-hio/rap, the players have changed. the new brand has completely squeezed out female MCs, as if we never existed. Maye a few people have made lots of money and it has gone world wide, but it has spelled death of the black female rap artist and the rise of a much more pigeon holed, conservative female musician. sad that at this point, besides minaj, lil kim and foxy and I guess eve would be holdin up our side – brrrr scary thought!

not only MCs but all of the black girl bands of the nineties – GONE! I forgot how many there were until I happened upon an old Total (memba’ them;-) video which of course led to the other vids. Listened to a little U-N-I-T-Y, some Lyte and Lady of rage – man! Wonder if we’ll see a cyclical pattern and the females will return to their glory?

[Reply]

Cherryl Reply:

i here ya! man, Total was my girls back in the day, lol @ those memories. and it seems like the only “acceptable” women in rap music these days are the ones who exemplify the ideal “product” that is ok for consumption by men of all races. it’s like the Beyoncification of black music.

not that i’m hating on B—”Freakuum Dress” is my ish! lol, but then again, i’m grown. which is another issue i see these days–there seems to be none to very little separation these day between what is the realm of “adults” and what belongs at the child’s table.

it’s like too many of us, imo, have kids to be our best friends instead of to be our kids.

and don’t even get me started on Lil Foxy Minaj. They’re all basically the same to me, idk what Lil Kim is beefing with Nicki about–she’s Lil Kim 2.0! they’re all wack, even though i gotta say Nicki had a couple of good rhymes on her Beam Me Up Scotty mixtape…idk where that Nicki went cause she’s totally turned pop and dumbed down a lot of her lyrics which is the last thing hip hop needs.

it’s to the point where I’m bout ready to put out my own darn mixtape!!

speaking of rappers…i didn’t catch the recent Image Awards but a colleague of mine who organized the No Wedding No Womb campaign last year, Christelyn Karazin, I saw on her Facebook page where she was discussing the fact that some rappers who use the n word got an image award?

I need to read up on this but gracious. How would Jewish people look awarding people who use the word kike? Wow if this is true black people are in a state. Then again, doesn’t the NAACP give out the Image Award? Lol that’s some “advancement”! Some days I just gotta shake my head at all this!

[Reply]

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Daahir Kahin Riiyale November 19th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

I watched Jill Scott’s interview and couldn’t contain my anger. What makes Ms. Scott think black men belong to her? I’m a black man, Somali to be exact. Now I have no way to prove this, but I think its important that I say it anyway. Black women have to understand this simple truism; there are far, FAR more white/hispanic/asian women out there than there are black girls. Now black men seem to have gotten the message, instead of cherry picking through 30 women to find a single black girl, we simply look for the first one that matches.

Why are black women looking for a needle in a haystack? For every available black man there are probably dozens of white/asian/hispanic men. Why wouldn’t they make life easier for themselves and settle with any man who meets her expectations?

I’ve seen the reports and read the statistics, it isn’t exactly epidemic status, but being terminally single isn’t a good thing. Black women in their 40s feigning confidence and claiming all is good is just a front. These women need a man, its only natural for people to be married or in a relationship. Its simply moronic for black women to limit themselves to black men, I have white friends who would die for a sista. Jill Scott can have her pick of a thousand white/hispanic men, crying in the shower wondering why she can’t get a brother is childish and counterproductive.

[Reply]

Cherryl Reply:

thank you for your insightful comment! i can feel your frustration spring off the screen. you know…there are a myriad reasons why black women seemingly refuse, en masse, to purse non-black love interests. it’s something i’ve been thinking of writing about, but basically my view on it is, after suffering so much with, supporting and raising so many black men on our own, it just seems like a giant slap in the face to not receive the same love in return. and this lack of love is often reinforced by male entertainers who usually feature the same light skin/long hair ideal woman types of the larger culture in their music videos and in movies.

also…this view is a little controversial, but frankly there are a good number of black women who feel like we shouldn’t have to “settle for less” ie, marry an average working class black man, so really there is also an undercurrent of classism at play here.

Black men, by and large, who are successful, tend to want the kind of woman of their arm who can “impress” everyone around him. Since most successful black men tend to work in places where the dominant, ie “white” culture is the accepted norm, they tend to choose women who look like the women displayed in magazines geared towards white men like Details and Maxim.

Because many black women are still firmly rooted in the idea of “family” and what their “family” will think of their mate, and because of the incredible financial burden that is on many black women’s shoulders, plus the fact that black women have added stresses that other women do not, it simply creates the desire in black women to find someone who will look good at their family reunions AND help them financially AND who can relate to the problems of being a black person. You don’t really want to come home to someone you feel you can’t relate to, do you? I don’t think anyone wants that.

It’s sad that many black women seem to be in a quandary because of these reasons…and there are other reasons too but if i get into all that i’ll be writing for days, lol but all in all it’s an incredibly frustrating place to be for women in that situation.

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